Switching a puppy from kibble to raw; Frozen raw

Discussion in 'BARF' started by cherp, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. cherp

    cherp Member

    Hi, I know how to switch from brand to brand kibble with mixing, but since raw diets are measured differently, how do you make the transition? Also, how long do you want to wait before you start mixing in the new food after the pup leaves mom and family?

    Also, I read about potential dangers of raw frozen foods, and I've also read that those dangers are unfounded and biased. What are your thoughts on this?
  2. Dillydoodle

    Dillydoodle Senior Member

    There are a few people who feed raw here.. I think gally is one. Hopefully she will pop in and post. I don't feed raw (I would love to but I am squeamish) so I am not the best to advise. I am sure you will get a certain someone telling you how bad raw is and how you are going to cause great harm to your dog... Just ignore it and hopefully the helpful folks will be able to fill you in...

  3. Frodo's Mom

    Frodo's Mom Senior Member

    I feed raw. Nature's Variety frozen patties. Frodo has been brought up on raw. He is 25 months old now. We have a weight issue I'm dealing with now -- which was due to all the other things he was getting in addition to the patties. The packaging gives a suggested serving size. He's getting one patty a day now split into 3 meals. I use glass containers to thaw out individual patties in the refrigerator. Just enough for the next two days. Use metal feeding dishes and remove as soon as they have eaten. It's usually eaten in seconds. I rotate the varieties that are available. Suggestions are that lamb is the most easily digested so should be first food you try. Chicken is also easy on their systems.

    I have not had any problems feeding raw. He's got great digestion. His teeth are in great shape. Never any tartar buildup. He has a solid routine. Poops on his morning and evening walks like clockwork.

    I'd be happy to offer any other advice if you have specific questions.

    I've fed the raw to my sisters cairn terrier who is normally kibble and she had no issue with it.

    If you look at any prepared food's websites they give caloric contents per recommended servings. You can calculate a comparable caloric intake between the kibble and the raw in that way.
  4. cherp

    cherp Member

    I was planning on getting lamb, rabbit and duck to rotate through, along with Chicken necks. I've settled on Primal for everything, including treats. Right now, Penny gets 1 3/4 cups of orijen puppy kibble per day broken up into three meals, is that close to the equivalent of one patty, or should puppies get a little more?
  5. Gally

    Gally Senior Member

    We feed Gally prey model raw which we "make" ourselves. For prey model raw the best way to switch is to go cold turkey and start with the most easily digested proteins. The order we recommend is chicken, turkey, pork or fish, lamb, beef or venison, organs, any additional protein sources.

    Raw breeders will ween there puppies straight onto raw so there is really no age that is too young to start if that is the way you want to go. If you're worried about the stress of the puppy when switching homes you could wait a week or two.
  6. Gally

    Gally Senior Member

    Puppies generally eat more than adult dogs during their major growth period. There should be feeding suggestions on the package for different ages or try their website.
    Feeding, Transition and Safety for Raw Dog Food Diets
  7. Michael Romanos

    Michael Romanos Active Member Staff Member Moderator

    Feeding raw meat of any type (incl fish) to dogs is risky and best avoided Some raw meats ie animals are a higher risk for dogs than are others.
    The very best meat for dogs is tripe - boiled for around 10 minutes or so.

    Cooked meat, or raw filleted fish which is frozen to a very high degree (higher than normal frdge freeze temperatures) are A ok for dogs

    Michael Romanos likes this
  8. Dillydoodle

    Dillydoodle Senior Member

    See... I toooold you so... So predictable.

    Glad some others have some helpful advice for you

  9. Frodo's Mom

    Frodo's Mom Senior Member

    I checked out the websites for Origen Puppy and the Primal Raw. The Origen puppy is about 490 kcal/cup. That means you are feeding around 860 calories a day. The Primal has slightly different calories contents by meat. On average around 50 calories per ounce. That means you should feed around 17 ounces a day. It appeared that the Primal comes in smaller patties that what I get in the Nature's Variety. They may have different sized patties in different packaging -- Nature's Variety does. I go for the most cost effective and use glass storage containers in the fridge to keep out about enough for his meals. Two containers that each have a patty in them. I rotate between two meat types. Buy two different types each purchase. He got bored with Lamb at one time but with the rotation he is fine now.

    There is a ton of good information on the internet about feeding raw. I work in the chemical industry. A lot of R&D efforts are expended on formulating to make the mfg process more efficient and to make products stay looking attractive over a longer shelf life. Do not for one moment think that every ingredient in commercial dog food is there simply for nutrition.
  10. Peggy

    Peggy Senior Member

    My thoughts, well, my personal opinion is that raw is an excellent diet. In fact I have a dog at the vet's today and when he gets home I will be switching him to raw food. He's got an enlarged prostate (so is now being neutered). I'm switching him to raw with the thinking that it will help him to heal and get that prostate under control.

    I had a corgi diagnosed with an oral cancer several years ago. He was not expected to live beyond 6 mos. I put him on raw food. He lived 19 mos. past his diagnosis. So yes, I think raw food has a place and if you can afford to go that route, go for it!!

    The food I just bought says to mix 1/4 raw food with 3/4 of the kibble usually fed. Then to half and half and then 1/4 kibble and 3/4 raw. So switch just like you would when going from one brand of kibble to another.

  11. cherp

    cherp Member

    Also knew who it would come from. :eyeroll:

    Thank you Frodo's Mom, Peggy and Gally. You've been incredibly helpful. :)
  12. Peggy

    Peggy Senior Member

    Yes, they do have different sizes. I just bought two bags of Primal. One is patties and one is nuggets. I haven't opened them yet, so not sure how they compare sizewise to the Nature's Variety I've used in the past. Will get back to you on that...

  13. Peggy

    Peggy Senior Member

    The frozen raw diets are just fine for dogs and meet or exceed the AAFCO requirements. These diets and homemade raw diets are "just fine for dogs" too.

  14. cherp

    cherp Member

    My entire life I have been told to never give cooked red meat, liver or fat to a dog.

    The only potential dangers I have read concerning feeding raw is going raw frozen over dehydrated or freeze-dried varieties, because a lot of people do not have cold enough freezers to keep 100% of the moisture frozen in the meat. However, I keep sushi-grade fish and beef for sushi and tartar in my freezer, so I'm not really concerned after learning that is the only danger.

    I do not plan on hunting for animals and feeding bacteria-infested meat to Penny. I have done plenty of research on brands and companies and have settled on a very high-quality brand and I do not feel any cause for concern in that regard. They also are not exclusively meat and contain all the nutrients a domesticated dog needs to be happy and healthy, so the diet will be very balanced and not require supplemental vitamins.
  15. Peggy

    Peggy Senior Member

    Really? I think that's an old wives tale too. A lot of people use cooked liver for bait (treats) in the show ring. I've given my dogs cooked red meat on occasion.

    I've not heard you need a special freezer and lots of people now feed raw food and keep it in their regular freezers. I've used it before and had no problems.

    Well, doubtful fresh killed meat would be bacteria infested. But still, I'm not hunting either. I prefer my meat to look like meat by the time I see it. I think I'd starve if I had to do the hunting. ;)

    I agree with your statement about the Primal brand. I think Nature's Variety is very good too.

  16. Michael Romanos

    Michael Romanos Active Member Staff Member Moderator

    Well Cherp that you don't know about raw meat versus cooked meat for dogs is a blot on your knowledge but you are not beyond redemption.

    For Peggy to say " just fine, fine, fine" is just rubbish. Dogs CAN get exactly what humans get if they too ate raw meat of any type including chicken and raw fish (apart from fish frozen to a specific standard.

    A story I did a few years ago called "The best food to feed dogs" included a quote from a world class canine nutritionist about bones and he said never give dogs cooked bones but he named four types of raw beef bones that are the best and safest for dogs and he said that these raw beef bones were a risk for dogs (for several reasons) but it was worth the risk to give dogs these bones (not too frequently) because of the benefits. But I think that today we say that instead of bones to help clean a dog's teeth and gums, doh dental cream did this far better and completely safely.

    Michael Romanos likes this
  17. cherp

    cherp Member

    That was kind of my point. :p Two-sides to the "that is risky" coin.
  18. cherp

    cherp Member

    I eat raw meat quite frequently, some of which has never been flash-frozen. I'm very healthy. The risks associated with eating raw meat has to do with bacteria and a lack of nutrients. It's all about knowing how to safely handle food (both for humans and dogs) and ensuring that you and your dog have a balanced diet.

    As someone who has actually had salmonella poisoning, I can tell you that it came from improper food handling and the meat I ate was actually cooked thoroughly. The bacteria still survived. This is the main reason I do not eat at restaurants without checking out their kitchens or if I know the Kitchen manager personally.

    The "risks" associated with eating cooked red meat has to do with canine cancer and with liver, it's hypervitaminosis A.

    Like I already said before, I trust Primal to safely handle the food, and I know I'm handling it safely at home. Just like I'm sure you feed your dogs a well-balanced diet.

    Also, canine dental cream contains chlorhexidine, a chemical antiseptic, which is only lethal at high concentrations, is found in things that humans do not ingest, such as mouthwash, contact lens solution, toothpaste, skin cleansers and lotion.

    Numerous scientific studies have shown that prolonged, low-exposure to this chemical topically can cause various health problems, including neurological problems. You can find a record of case studies and scientific studies at the NLM.

    I don't know why you say "we" say this, because I know very few people who brush their dogs' teeth. They all use bones or similar natural methods. Your opinion isn't shared by everyone, but I'm sure it's fine for you.
  19. Peggy

    Peggy Senior Member

    Wow, let's just star off being rude and insulting again. Do you not know anything about manners? Good thing I know some other people in NZ or I'd think that all New Zealanders were like you.

    Nope, no blot. She can feed raw food if she wants. And it is JUST FINE to do that. A good many dogs do great on raw food and quite a few owners here in the US are feeding raw food and have been for years. You might think it's rubbish but that is only YOUR opinion, and in this case, IMO, it's flawed thinking.

    Can doesn't mean will. And dogs usually don't. You seem to keep forgetting that dogs have shorter digestive tracts and that's why they don't have the problems we do from eating raw food. A dog's digestive tract is very similar to a wild dogs and darn it all, they eat raw food all the time. I've yet to hear about a wolf or coyote making a fire to cook his meat.

    Does he have a name? Funny how your sources never have names.

    We're not talking about giving cooked bones. We're talking about raw food.

    All of us don't say that. Some of us still think that raw bones do a better job. And IMO, raw or partially frozen turkey necks work really well to keep teeth clean!

  20. Michael Romanos

    Michael Romanos Active Member Staff Member Moderator

    Feeding raw red and white meat and fish to dogs is a risk and in some cases a major risk and is simply playing around with their health prospects. The word CAN or MAY always applies but if anyone wants to point a partly loaded gun at a dog and fire - well the chances of a bullet wounding or killing a dog are greater than if the gun was empty. And the same applies to dogs who get food that is not appropriate.

    Raw bones do not do a better or safer job than does dental cream for dogs. Any one with any degree of commonsense would see this. Bones are one of the biggest reason for dogs requiring veterinary assistance and in the case of emergency vet clinic visits, is the main reason followed by sticks.

    Peggy - we are talking about bones raw or cooked because bones are a source of meat - if you didn't already know this.

    Michael Romanos likes this

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